Conversation with a friend
A friend I've known since the 7th grade and I have been having a philosophical discussion over email the last few days. I'd like to post a snippet of this conversation and get some input.
It's in regards to a YouTube clip of Richard Dawkins that he sent me. Here's the link:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qR_z85O0P2M
Dale: He calls God the “big surveillance camera in the sky” and that’s why we behave morally, out of fear.
Mike: Actually, he says he hopes that's not the reason. He says it would be scary if the only reason people do good to each other is due to fear of the "big surveillance camera in the sky".
Dale: This is just another religion. A secular one, yes, but a religion nonetheless.
Mike: That's fine. There is nothing wrong with religion. Humans need ritual and dogma. The problem is when people start believing their religion is factual. As long as they realize this dogma is man-made and not gospel from some supernatural being, it is healthy. Once people buy into these myths which they, themselves, created, things get silly and, ofttimes, dangerous. Nothing is wrong with fantasy as long it is acknowledged as fantasy.
Dale: I know it puts a dent in the what-I-want-to-do-when-I-want-to-do-it-idea-and-there’s-nothing-that-you-can-do-to-stop-me- thing you got going
Mike: No it doesn't. Quite the opposite, really. I find it idiotic to place "bets" on whether there is a god or not. God is a literary creation. It is like placing "bets" on whether Tom Sawyer exists or not. Who cares? What a waste of time.
Even if god exists, who is to say you chose the right one.
If you were born in a different part of the world (and/or in a different time period) you wouldn't even be worshiping the same god. Are you to believe you are "saved" simply because you were born in 20th century America and your parents chose Christianity as your religion? You are way smarter than that, Dale.
It amazes me that you, being as logical and bright as you are, can buy into this crap.
If Christianity makes you happy and you enjoy being a part of it, I say go for it. I support your decision 100%. Just don't be deluded into taking it so literally.
Religion is show business. Enjoy the show. Just don't leave the theater thinking there really are a such thing as Hobbits. It is counter-productive and mentally enslaving.
So what do you think?
Dale
It's in regards to a YouTube clip of Richard Dawkins that he sent me. Here's the link:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qR_z85O0P2M
Dale: He calls God the “big surveillance camera in the sky” and that’s why we behave morally, out of fear.
Mike: Actually, he says he hopes that's not the reason. He says it would be scary if the only reason people do good to each other is due to fear of the "big surveillance camera in the sky".
Dale: This is just another religion. A secular one, yes, but a religion nonetheless.
Mike: That's fine. There is nothing wrong with religion. Humans need ritual and dogma. The problem is when people start believing their religion is factual. As long as they realize this dogma is man-made and not gospel from some supernatural being, it is healthy. Once people buy into these myths which they, themselves, created, things get silly and, ofttimes, dangerous. Nothing is wrong with fantasy as long it is acknowledged as fantasy.
Dale: I know it puts a dent in the what-I-want-to-do-when-I-want-to-do-it-idea-and-there’s-nothing-that-you-can-do-to-stop-me- thing you got going
Mike: No it doesn't. Quite the opposite, really. I find it idiotic to place "bets" on whether there is a god or not. God is a literary creation. It is like placing "bets" on whether Tom Sawyer exists or not. Who cares? What a waste of time.
Even if god exists, who is to say you chose the right one.
If you were born in a different part of the world (and/or in a different time period) you wouldn't even be worshiping the same god. Are you to believe you are "saved" simply because you were born in 20th century America and your parents chose Christianity as your religion? You are way smarter than that, Dale.
It amazes me that you, being as logical and bright as you are, can buy into this crap.
If Christianity makes you happy and you enjoy being a part of it, I say go for it. I support your decision 100%. Just don't be deluded into taking it so literally.
Religion is show business. Enjoy the show. Just don't leave the theater thinking there really are a such thing as Hobbits. It is counter-productive and mentally enslaving.
So what do you think?
Dale
posted by Wealthedge at 10:14 PM
6 Comments:
Dale,
First, I would be very careful about this being an email exchange. My rule of thumb is that, if after a couple of emails back and forth, you're getting nowhere with something, it is time to pick up the phone or meet for coffee.
This is really tough, and I don't think debate is the answer here. It comes back down to not being able to convince anyone of anything they don't want to buy into. I think you may just need to agree to disagree, and then let your light shine. God will use you way better than you can use yourself. Be an example of how He works in your LIFE. But if you back this guy into a corner, and relationship is lost, then nothing good can come...It sounds already from this little snippet, that he is losing respect for who you are, ("You are way smarter than that, Dale. It amazes me that you, being as logical and bright as you are, can buy into this crap.") and once that happens, it will be pretty difficult to example anything for him...
Susie,
Good points ..
I can't go for coffee because he lives in FL ..
The way I take it is that he thinks you have to check your brains at the door to believe in God.
The televangelists and pedophile priests have taken their toll on this ..
Christianity would be great if it wasn’t for the Christians (including me) ..
Thanks, Susie .. good words ..
Anyone else?
Dale
From my blog:
The state of your soul is always expressed in your outer conditions and in the intangible influence which you radiate at large. There is a cosmic law that nothing can permanently deny its own nature. Emerson said "What you are shouts so loudly that I cannot hear what you say." In the Bible, the "city" stands for consciousness, and the "hill" or "mountain" means prayer or spiritual activity. "I will lift up mine eyes unto the hills from whence cometh my help." "Except the Lord keep the city, the watchman waketh but in vain." The soul built upon prayer cannot be hidden; it shines out brightly through the life that it lives. It speaks for itself, but in utter silence, and does much of its best work unconsciously. Its mere presence heals and blesses all around it without special effort.
Never try to force other people to accept spiritual truth. Instead, see to it that they are so favorably impressed by your own life and conduct, and the peace and joy that radiate from you, that they will come running to you of their own accord, begging you to give them the wonderful thing that you have. "I, if I be lifted up, I will draw all men unto me." To do this is to make your soul truly the city upon a hill that cannot be hidden because it is the City of God. Let your light shine to the glorifying of your Father.
Emmet Fox
Susie is right Dale. At this point, your friend is tainted by his idea of religion and Christianity. No amount of locigal argument will change that, only seeing truth lived out will change his mind. We cannot change others, we can only change they way we are. Maybe if you change the way you deal with him he'll see that what you have said is truth.
Excellent post, Michelle .. very succinct ..
It’s funny, too, because I wasn’t even talking about Christianity with my friend. We were starting all the way at the beginning with the questions of “Why are we here?” and “How did we get here?”
Just trying to overcome all the bad philosophy out there surrounding our origins and our purpose. We hadn’t even gotten into any talk about Jesus vs Vishnu vs Allah vs Buddha. As a matter of fact, a couple of times he would make a remark about religion and my response was “We aren’t even talking about religion right now. We are talking about cosmology and ethics and biology. We’ll get to the ‘religion’ stuff later.”
But, to have a conversation about Jesus, I guess it is inescapable to turn to subjects that require faith.
No amount of logic and reason is going to get you there. It’s never going to be a decision of the mind.
Jesus works on our hearts.
Hmm.
Dale
Dale,
I read this post a while ago, but I wanted to let it all soak in and give it some thought before responding. It's an interesting discussion.
I agree with just about everything said before me. Let His light shine through your life. It's not just for your friend to see, but everyone with whom you come in contact. And if you push your friend too far, you might lose him. It's true.
But there's another school of thought worthy of exploring.
For what it's worth, I don't agree with the thought that Christianity would be great if it wasn’t for the Christians. I understand the precept from where it comes. We've made a ton of mistakes along the way. But, it also - in a way - plays God for a fool.
If we've been chosen and set apart, then are we saying God doesn't know how to pick 'em? Or, does He pick 'em the way He does for a specific purpose?
Christians come from the world, therefore, they're a direct representation of the world. If there is sin in the world, there is sin in us. It's inescapable.
Anyway, my point is this: God chose to put you in your friends life for a reason. When I think of who you are, I think of an outspoken man with an overly generous heart - a man who could debate the argyle socks off any lawyer.
You're intelligent, articulate, and you have a way about you that captivates an audience (goofy intelligence?).
So, maybe that's what your friend needs. Maybe God put you where He has because He knows you'll speak up on His behalf. He knows you'll be the one to proclaim His name loud enough for your friend to finally hear.
At the risk of taking this out of context, in Matthew 10:27, Jesus exhorts, "What I tell you in the dark, speak in the daylight; what is whispered in your ear, proclaim from the roofs."
Perhaps your friend doesn't need a whisper. He might need you. So, be you.
It's food for thought.
Laurence,
Yeah, that’s good stuff. You hit on the crux of the dilemma, which is why I posted it here.
There are two paths to follow, both with positives and negatives.
Do I take every chance I get to tell him my thoughts and beliefs, and don’t worry about if he’s comfortable with it?
Or do I sit back, be a good example, and if he doesn’t figure it out or can’t see the forest for the trees, then that’s his problem?
There’s treachery either way. This way is lions, that way tigers.
I guess that’s why God has to do it.
And I see where you are coming from with the chosen being set apart by God, and since God is never wrong, then there is something special about His people.
It’s the bumper sticker that says “Christians aren’t perfect, just forgiven.”
I guess what I’m saying is that the imperfect people in the Bible seem somehow different to me than what the world can point to now.
Maybe it’s because mass media and microwaves and YouTube has made it so easy to access various thoughts and perspectives.
I mean, David was a man after God’s own heart. Jonah was a coward, but he came through. Lot was a wimp, but he came through.
We’ve got pedophile priests and Jim Bakker and New Age.
We can’t even agree on what we should agree about.
It’s splintered.
I guess that’s why my only argument against “Hey, look at that – another pedophile priest!” is to look at Jesus, the only Man beyond reproach.
Jesus is perfect. The rest of us can use that as an example. That’s really the only light of logic and reason in the darkness of what others consider “blind” faith.
Belief is the starting point. Without belief, then it’s for naught.
And we’ll still be horrible examples of Christ’s perfection.
But I guess it still counts if we keep trying.
Dale
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