Conversation with a friend

A friend I've known since the 7th grade and I have been having a philosophical discussion over email the last few days. I'd like to post a snippet of this conversation and get some input.

It's in regards to a YouTube clip of Richard Dawkins that he sent me. Here's the link:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qR_z85O0P2M



Dale: He calls God the “big surveillance camera in the sky” and that’s why we behave morally, out of fear.

Mike: Actually, he says he hopes that's not the reason. He says it would be scary if the only reason people do good to each other is due to fear of the "big surveillance camera in the sky".

Dale: This is just another religion. A secular one, yes, but a religion nonetheless.

Mike: That's fine. There is nothing wrong with religion. Humans need ritual and dogma. The problem is when people start believing their religion is factual. As long as they realize this dogma is man-made and not gospel from some supernatural being, it is healthy. Once people buy into these myths which they, themselves, created, things get silly and, ofttimes, dangerous. Nothing is wrong with fantasy as long it is acknowledged as fantasy.

Dale: I know it puts a dent in the what-I-want-to-do-when-I-want-to-do-it-idea-and-there’s-nothing-that-you-can-do-to-stop-me- thing you got going

Mike: No it doesn't. Quite the opposite, really. I find it idiotic to place "bets" on whether there is a god or not. God is a literary creation. It is like placing "bets" on whether Tom Sawyer exists or not. Who cares? What a waste of time.

Even if god exists, who is to say you chose the right one.

If you were born in a different part of the world (and/or in a different time period) you wouldn't even be worshiping the same god. Are you to believe you are "saved" simply because you were born in 20th century America and your parents chose Christianity as your religion? You are way smarter than that, Dale.

It amazes me that you, being as logical and bright as you are, can buy into this crap.

If Christianity makes you happy and you enjoy being a part of it, I say go for it. I support your decision 100%. Just don't be deluded into taking it so literally.

Religion is show business. Enjoy the show. Just don't leave the theater thinking there really are a such thing as Hobbits. It is counter-productive and mentally enslaving.


So what do you think?

Dale

A Different Christmas Poem

The embers glowed softly, and in their dim light,
I gazed round the room and I cherished the sight.
My wife was asleep, her head on my chest,
My daughter beside me, angelic in rest.
Outside the snow fell, a blanket of white,
Transforming the yard to a winter delight.
The sparkling lights in the tree I believe,
Completed the magic that was Christmas Eve.
My eyelids were heavy, my breathing was deep,
Secure and surrounded by love I would sleep.
In perfect contentment, or so it would seem,
So I slumbered, perhaps I started to dream.

The sound wasn't loud, and it wasn't too near,
But I opened my eyes when it tickled my ear.
Perhaps just a cough, I didn't quite know, Then the
sure sound of footsteps outside in the snow.
My soul gave a tremble, I struggled to hear,
And I crept to the door just to see who was near.
Standing out in the cold and the dark of the night,
A lone figure stood, his face weary and tight.

A soldier, I puzzled, some twenty years old,
Perhaps a Marine, huddled here in the cold.
Alone in the dark, he looked up and smiled,
Standing watch over me, and my wife and my child.
"What are you doing?" I asked without fear,
"Come in this moment, it's freezing out here!
Put down your pack, brush the snow from your sleeve,
You should be at home on a cold Christmas Eve!"

For barely a moment I saw his eyes shift,
Away from the cold and the snow blown in drifts..
To the window that danced with a warm fire's light
Then he sighed and he said "Its really all right,
I'm out here by choice. I'm here every night."

"It's my duty to stand at the front of the line,
That separates you from the darkest of times.
No one had to ask or beg or implore me,
I'm proud to stand here like my fathers before me.
My Gramps died at 'Pearl on a day in December,
"Then he sighed, "That's a Christmas 'Gram always remembers.
"My dad stood his watch in the jungles of 'Nam',
And now it is my turn and so, here I am.
I've not seen my own son in more than a while,
But my wife sends me pictures, he's sure got her smile.

Then he bent and he carefully pulled from his bag,
The red, white, and blue... an American flag.
I can live through the cold and the being alone,
Away from my family, my house and my home.
I can stand at my post through the rain and the sleet,
I can sleep in a foxhole with little to eat.
I can carry the weight of killing another,
Or lay down my life with my sister and brother..
Who stand at the front against any and all,
To ensure for all time that this flag will not fall."

"So go back inside," he said, "harbor no fright,
Your family is waiting and I'll be all right."
"But isn't there something I can do, at the least,
"Give you money," I asked, "or prepare you a feast?
It seems all too little for all that you've done,
For being away from your wife and your son."
Then his eye welled a tear that held no regret,
"Just tell us you love us, and never forget.

To fight for our rights back at home while we're gone,
To stand your own watch, no matter how long.
For when we come home, either standing or dead,
To know you remember we fought and we bled.
Is payment enough, and with that we will trust,
That we mattered to you as you mattered to us."


I usually don't go for the sappy Christmas poems, but this one was done just right.

This is the reason I got so bent out of shape on the Pledge of Allegiance thing.

This is the reason I love this country so much.

Dale

I think Mick Jones was onto something here ..

OK, get out your lighters and your acid wash jeans; this one's going back a little bit. And turn down the Miami Vice, there's a point to all this! :)

I Want to Know What Love Is - Foreigner

I gotta take a little time, a little time to think things over
I better read between the lines, in case I need it when I'm older

Now this mountain I must climb, feels like the world upon my shoulders
Through the clouds I see love shine, it keeps me warm as life grows colder

In my life there's been heartache and pain
I don't know if I can face it again
Can't stop now, I've traveled so far, to change this lonely life

I want to know what love is, I want you to show me
I want to feel what love is, I know you can show me

I'm gonna take a little time, a little time to look around me
I've got nowhere left to hide, it looks like love has finally found me

In my life there's been heartache and pain
I don't know if I can face it again
Can't stop now, I've traveled so far, to change this lonely life

I want to know what love is, I want you to show me
I want to feel what love is, I know you can show me
I want to know what love is, I want you to show me
(And I wanna feel) I want to feel what love is
(And I know) I know you can show me

Let's talk about love - I want to know what love is
The love that you feel inside - I want you to show me
And I'm feeling so much love - I want to feel what love is
No, you just can't hide - I know you can show me
I want to know what love is (let's talk about love), I know you can show me
I wanna feel it too - I want to feel what love is
I wanna feel it too, and I know and I know - I know you can show me
Show me love is real, yeah - I want to know what love is...


Alright! What a totally rocking jam! Dude, my Atari just died. I need to upgrade from 16K of RAM to 32K. That's all I'll ever need. Someone get me a soda in a pull-top can and my Member's Only jacket ..

So, setting aside the obvious reference to eros love, I think Mick was onto something here.

What is love? I want to know.

What is love to you? How do you define it? What does it look like?

Is it a feeling? Is it something intangible?

Is it different from person to person?

God is love, sure, so are we trying to defining something as indelible and enigmatic as God?

Dale

This made me sad and angry, I need input

I usually don't react to news stories like this. I usually let them slide off of my consciousness and get my mind back onto worthwhile things (Philippians 4:8).

This one caught me off guard and really struck a nerve in me.

Here’s the link, and I’ll post the story here.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20061110/us_nm/life_pledge_dc

Students at Calif. College ban Pledge of Allegiance
Thu Nov 9, 8:42 PM ET



LOS ANGELES (Reuters) - Student leaders at a California college have touched off a furor by banning the Pledge of Allegiance at their meetings, saying they see no reason to publicly swear loyalty to God and the U.S. government.

The move by Orange Coast College student trustees, the latest clash over patriotism and religion in American schools, has infuriated some of their classmates -- prompting one young woman to loudly recite the pledge in front of the board on Wednesday night in defiance of the rule.

"America is the one thing I'm passionate about and I can't let them take that away from me," 18-year-old political science major Christine Zoldos told Reuters.

"The fact that they have enough power to ban one of the most valued traditions in America is just horrible," Zoldos said, adding she would attend every board meeting to salute the flag.

The move was lead by three recently elected student trustees, who ran for office wearing revolutionary-style berets and said they do not believe in publicly swearing an oath to the American flag and government at their school. One student trustee voted against the measure, which does not apply to other student groups or campus meetings.

The ban follows a 2002 ruling by a federal appeals court in San Francisco that said forcing school children to recite the pledge was unconstitutional because of the phrase "under God." The U.S. Supreme Court struck down the ruling on procedural grounds but left the door open for another challenge.

"That ('under God') part is sort of offensive to me," student trustee Jason Bell, who proposed the ban, told Reuters. "I am an atheist and a socialist, and if you know your history, you know that 'under God' was inserted during the McCarthy era and was directly designed to destroy my ideology."

Bell said the ban largely came about because the trustees didn't want to publicly vow loyalty to the American government before their meetings. "Loyalty ought to be something the government earns through performance, not through reciting a pledge," he said.

Martha Parham, a spokeswoman for the Coast Community College District, said her office had no standing on the student board and took no position on the flag salute ban.

"If their personal belief is that they don't want to say the Pledge of Allegiance, the district certainly isn't going to dictate what they do," she said.

More than 28,000 students attend the community college, located in conservative Orange County, California, south of Los Angeles.


Here is my response to Jason Bell (via email):

Jason,

I understand that you don’t feel that you should pledge allegiance to the US Flag. From your quote on Yahoo News, you said:

"Loyalty ought to be something the government earns through performance, not through reciting a pledge,"

The government is the people of this country. WE are the government. We are the people of the United States. You are quoted saying something like, “if you know your history”, which implies that you do “know your history”.

If that were true, then you would know that the United States of America isn’t a continent or a government building or a group of laws.

It is an ideal; it is a group of people with different minds and different perspectives but with a common ground: the fact that we are the collective people of the United States, and that, for better or worse, we are together.

That is a pledge-worthy ideal.

And to say that the “government” hasn’t earned your pledge is to dishonor the millions of men and women who have died protecting you and your freedoms.

The fact that we aren’t the Fourth Reich right now is because of our ancestor’s toil and pain.

Your loyalty was bought with blood.

To deny that doesn’t reflect your enlightened view. It doesn’t show your grasp of freedom of speech.

It shows that you hold no love in your heart for the people of this land, and that you have no honor for the personal sacrifice that has been made for you and your family for the last 200 odd years.

Shame on you, sir. Shame on you.

This country has cradled you.

Shame on you.

Dale



What do you think?